Change algorithm to prevent ASICs from centralizing mining power.

ghost commented

2018-01-26 12:44:05 +01:00

(Migrated from github.com)

With the production and monopolization Baikal has done with the new ASIC miner they have made, (It costs 9,000-10,000$) I think this conflicts with the ideology of LBRY.
https://asicminermarket.com/product/baikal-miner-giant-b/
Mining will be less decentralized, and more reserved for the rich. Also LBRY will be less secure and more prone to attacks before more producers have made more ASICs, and mining power has become more distributed.

This isn't the vision of LBRY, is it?
https://spee.ch/6/Screen-Shot-2018-01-26-at-130322.png <--- See the rise in mining power. (blue line) this graph was collected from https://www.nicehash.com/algorithm/lbry ... You can see mining power has gone up about 10x in about 10 days.

I will be writing more about this issue at https://LBRY.Community soon. It is sad to see all the people using their graphic cards are made obsolete, in the shadow of an exclusive ASIC miner, costing almost 10,000$

I made a relevant Twitter POLL: https://twitter.com/LBRYCommunity/status/957535338267897856

With the production and monopolization Baikal has done with the new ASIC miner they have made, (It costs 9,000-10,000$) I think this conflicts with the ideology of LBRY. https://asicminermarket.com/product/baikal-miner-giant-b/ Mining will be less decentralized, and more reserved for the rich. Also LBRY will be less secure and more prone to attacks before more producers have made more ASICs, and mining power has become more distributed. This isn't the vision of LBRY, is it? https://spee.ch/6/Screen-Shot-2018-01-26-at-130322.png <--- See the rise in mining power. (blue line) this graph was collected from https://www.nicehash.com/algorithm/lbry ... You can see mining power has gone up about 10x in about 10 days. I will be writing more about this issue at https://LBRY.Community soon. It is sad to see all the people using their graphic cards are made obsolete, in the shadow of an exclusive ASIC miner, costing almost 10,000$ I made a relevant Twitter POLL: https://twitter.com/LBRYCommunity/status/957535338267897856

ghost commented

2018-01-28 08:33:37 +01:00

(Migrated from github.com)

i am open for discussion on this matter :)

ghost commented

2018-01-29 11:04:11 +01:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I have one suggestion, I am a bit knowledgable, but I am not knowledgeable enough about algorithms and blockchain technology to actually know if this will work/be adaptable: Multi-algorithm, like DigiByte Coin. Prevents ASICs to control the mining power, but also includes them in a shared pool of 5 algorithms. Every algorithm is allocated 20% of the decision-power/block reward.

This method is including, and not excluding a part of our community (the miners).

Another problem: How to HardFork/Softfork (I don't know which one is needed.) to an algorithm which reduces profits of the most powerful miners? Won't they disagree?

Suggestion of solution: The first users of the baikal miners are reaping extremely high profits in the beginning, while more and more "rich" people, and companies will buy the baikals, ... some weeks/months... the profits will be more equal. "The gold rush ends".

If LBRY starts early enough to communicate their stance in this matter, and say "no matter what happens, the team will work on a new algorithm allocation". The baikal miners will then have to choose whether to continue with high profit ASIC, or join the coin which the Developer Team is working on.

With this ultimatum, I think we may either keep the LBC name, or if the miners disagree, the team will have to do this fork and sort-of rebrand the name of their coin, and get new exchange listings. Maybe rename the coin to just LBRY Credits 2.0 (LBC2) ?

I have one suggestion, I am a bit knowledgable, but I am not knowledgeable enough about algorithms and blockchain technology to actually know if this will work/be adaptable: Multi-algorithm, like DigiByte Coin. Prevents ASICs to control the mining power, but also includes them in a shared pool of 5 algorithms. Every algorithm is allocated 20% of the decision-power/block reward. This method is including, and not excluding a part of our community (the miners). Another problem: How to HardFork/Softfork (I don't know which one is needed.) to an algorithm which reduces profits of the most powerful miners? Won't they disagree? Suggestion of solution: The first users of the baikal miners are reaping extremely high profits in the beginning, while more and more "rich" people, and companies will buy the baikals, ... some weeks/months... the profits will be more equal. "The gold rush ends". If LBRY starts early enough to communicate their stance in this matter, and say "no matter what happens, the team will work on a new algorithm allocation". The baikal miners will then have to choose whether to continue with high profit ASIC, or join the coin which the Developer Team is working on. With this ultimatum, I think we may either keep the LBC name, or if the miners disagree, the team will have to do this fork and sort-of rebrand the name of their coin, and get new exchange listings. Maybe rename the coin to just LBRY Credits 2.0 (LBC2) ?

tzarebczan commented

2018-01-30 03:43:38 +01:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I brought this up to the team today and we'll be making a statement about it in the next week or two. It's also not fair to say that users' video cards become obsolete - they can choose to mine a different algorithm (I know, this isn't a solution for those that want to support LBRY).

I don't see how this leads to creating a separate coin, at least not for us. They can continue to mine a blockchain without any new content or development support, but it really would not make sense.

I brought this up to the team today and we'll be making a statement about it in the next week or two. It's also not fair to say that users' video cards become obsolete - they can choose to mine a different algorithm (I know, this isn't a solution for those that want to support LBRY). I don't see how this leads to creating a separate coin, at least not for us. They can continue to mine a blockchain without any new content or development support, but it really would not make sense.

ghost commented

2018-01-30 11:52:18 +01:00

(Migrated from github.com)

Thanks for your feedback! And I'm sorry that we were a bit biased in our poll + recent communications by the LBRY.Community twitter account.

We (at least me, and some others I have talked to.) just have some strong ideologies here at LBRY.Community, against corporative control, to enable growth for people in development countries. For we truly believe "LBRY should be for everyone".

This includes even the mining part of this protocol. If I can make a poor person in a poor neighborhood, start mining LBRY Credits at a profit, then it will make my life a lot better. About 15 days ago, this changed.

We hope you take this into consideration when you are branding LBRY Inc. That you have a clear vision of your brands identity. I would like LBRY to be less for corporations, and more for the people. More greener and empathic. I would like LBRY to be for everyone.

This is our stance, and we won't bother you anymore of it :)

Thanks for your feedback! And I'm sorry that we were a bit biased in our poll + recent communications by the LBRY.Community twitter account. We (at least me, and some others I have talked to.) just have some strong ideologies here at LBRY.Community, against corporative control, to enable growth for people in development countries. For we truly believe "LBRY should be for everyone". This includes even the mining part of this protocol. If I can make a poor person in a poor neighborhood, start mining LBRY Credits at a profit, then it will make my life a lot better. About 15 days ago, this changed. We hope you take this into consideration when you are branding LBRY Inc. That you have a clear vision of your brands identity. I would like LBRY to be less for corporations, and more for the people. More greener and empathic. I would like LBRY to be for everyone. This is our stance, and we won't bother you anymore of it :)

ghost commented

2018-01-30 15:20:19 +01:00

(Migrated from github.com)

Maybe even a rebrand is in place?
To make it easier for people to distinguish between the Company and the Protocol, or the many different elements of LBRY.

These are just my personal suggestions, and not necessarily the opinions of LBRY.Community as a whole.

We should ask ourselves this question: "Without any change in algorithm, will the LBRY Protocol still function for our current plan of operation and development?"

... Answer is yes. We don't need this change/fork.
This is just a thing I think is nice to have as a company, because it communicates something good. It shows good values for something which is community-driven.

Maybe even a rebrand is in place? To make it easier for people to distinguish between the Company and the Protocol, or the many different elements of LBRY. These are just my personal suggestions, and not necessarily the opinions of LBRY.Community as a whole. We should ask ourselves this question: "Without any change in algorithm, will the LBRY Protocol still function for our current plan of operation and development?" ... Answer is yes. We don't need this change/fork. This is just a thing I think is nice to have as a company, because it communicates something good. It shows good values for something which is community-driven.

BrunoDSL commented

2018-02-16 19:49:43 +01:00

(Migrated from github.com)

It's safe to say that most, if not all, of the Baikal miners currently opting to use LBC are merely leveraging it as a transitional coin, which means that they are technically not supporting other parts of the project either.

finer9 commented

2018-02-16 20:39:51 +01:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I would argue that GPU miners were not supporting other parts of the
project before either

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 1:49 PM, MR4Y notifications@github.com wrote:

It's safe to say that most, if not all, of the Baikal miners currently
opting to use LBC are merely leveraging it as a transitional coin, which
means that they are technically not supporting other parts of the project
either.

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I would argue that GPU miners were not supporting other parts of the project before either On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 1:49 PM, MR4Y <notifications@github.com> wrote: > It's safe to say that most, if not all, of the Baikal miners currently > opting to use LBC are merely leveraging it as a transitional coin, which > means that they are technically not supporting other parts of the project > either. > > — > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > <https://github.com/lbryio/lbrycrd/issues/85#issuecomment-366324860>, or mute > the thread > <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/APoYDOOgMDM-IV3IXDkoC2TWs2aKcQvjks5tVc3IgaJpZM4RuMpW> > . > -- Josh Finer Director of Operations and Analytics LBRY, Inc.

ghost commented

2018-02-20 23:50:10 +01:00

(Migrated from github.com)

One thing is for sure - the mining community in the #mining -channel the LBRY Discord is dead now. We had a community who were forced to mine other coins with their GPUs. Maybe that in itself isn't the worst thing about this, though.

IMO: The most important factor is to have a decentralized and secure network, and a network which represents the vision of LBRY.

The purpose of the miners is to secure the network. This is still happening with the FPGAs, but it is more reserved for the rich, since there was no option to buy a cheap FPGA. This is making the network power more centralized and insecure.

I think this conflicts with LBRY.Communitys vision "LBRY is for Everyone".

If Baikal had released cheaper FPGAs, and talked with LBRY, so they could have advertised it, as a partnership with mutual understanding, then this conversation would probably have another tone. I think this is some devious plan for them to earn money. It was done under the hood.

If both CPU, GPU, FPGA and ASIC-mining was profitable with multi-algorithm, then we could become more decentralized, and more secure. Like Digibytes multi-algo setup here ---> https://digibyte.io/sites/default/files/breakdown_0.png

This means for example all CPU-miners doing 1 algorithm are rewarded 20% regardless if there are a trillion ASICs or FPGAs. Also the CPU-miners will have 20% of the decision power.

If LBRY Inc. did this, we would communicate a more inclusive mining community, and less exclusive. It would coincide more with LBRY.Communitys vision "LBRY is for Everyone".

(This below is just a suggestion, I don't know if this will work necessarily.)
With profitable CPU-mining, we can enable features similar like https://ipbc.io have done. (They use voluntary CPU-mining in the browser for the users, to reward the content creators.)

LBRY could let users do voluntary CPU-mining when they use the app, so the users can get rewarded LBC by using it, and secure the network. The time the users watch free videos, the mining rewards could go to the content creators. This would create a whole new market of poor users.

To me: The biggest question is - How to fork?

One thing is for sure - the mining community in the #mining -channel the LBRY Discord is dead now. We had a community who were forced to mine other coins with their GPUs. Maybe that in itself isn't the worst thing about this, though. IMO: The most important factor is to have a decentralized and secure network, and a network which represents the vision of LBRY. The purpose of the miners is to secure the network. This is still happening with the FPGAs, but it is more reserved for the rich, since there was no option to buy a cheap FPGA. This is making the network power more centralized and insecure. I think this conflicts with LBRY.Communitys vision "LBRY is for Everyone". If Baikal had released cheaper FPGAs, and talked with LBRY, so they could have advertised it, as a partnership with mutual understanding, then this conversation would probably have another tone. I think this is some devious plan for them to earn money. It was done under the hood. If both CPU, GPU, FPGA and ASIC-mining was profitable with multi-algorithm, then we could become more decentralized, and more secure. Like Digibytes multi-algo setup here ---> https://digibyte.io/sites/default/files/breakdown_0.png - This means for example all CPU-miners doing 1 algorithm are rewarded 20% regardless if there are a trillion ASICs or FPGAs. Also the CPU-miners will have 20% of the decision power. If LBRY Inc. did this, we would communicate a more inclusive mining community, and less exclusive. It would coincide more with LBRY.Communitys vision "LBRY is for Everyone". (This below is just a suggestion, I don't know if this will work necessarily.) With profitable CPU-mining, we can enable features similar like https://ipbc.io have done. (They use voluntary CPU-mining in the browser for the users, to reward the content creators.) LBRY could let users do voluntary CPU-mining when they use the app, so the users can get rewarded LBC by using it, and secure the network. The time the users watch free videos, the mining rewards could go to the content creators. This would create a whole new market of poor users. To me: The biggest question is - How to fork?

BrunoDSL commented

2018-02-22 15:43:48 +01:00

(Migrated from github.com)

@finer9 They at least created some movement in the community server, as opposed to currently, where people only go there to ask for mining for other competing currencies or make use of the bot for calculations and to see the price of LBC, which will not go up or stay up for long with the ASIC centralization and other issues that are not related to the algorithm.

QuirkyRobots commented

2018-03-04 05:08:31 +01:00

(Migrated from github.com)

An optional micro-mining option, built in to the app would help with mining needs and as carrot on the stick, to help app adaption with mining rewards.

This would also encourage users to keep the app open for more mining income, which would help seed content on the LBRY network. Win win!

An optional micro-mining option, built in to the app would help with mining needs and as carrot on the stick, to help app adaption with mining rewards. This would also encourage users to keep the app open for more mining income, which would help seed content on the LBRY network. Win win!

alyssaoc commented

2018-07-18 18:14:07 +02:00

(Migrated from github.com)

still exploring options, will reconsider in future

Change algorithm to prevent ASICs from centralizing mining power. #85